teaching courses

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teaching courses

Postby brochstone » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:47 pm

Any one got any ideas how insurance works regarding teaching courses? I read the DSWA information on teaching weekends but it said it isn't recognised externally, so i presume it's geared towards general teaching ideas and day structure. I've done a lot of teaching abroad and feel very comfortable about doing it but i wanted to know where a man stands in terms of getting insurance (the course would be on private land) in terms of clumsy little Tommy dropping a stone on his finger. Do signed disclaimers have any clout? Is insurance for running courses prohibitively expensive? Anyone been on one of the DSWA's teaching weekends? I'm qualified to Intermediate and recently joined the DSWA as a professional member. Any comments would be very welcome. regards.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby Tracey B » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:19 pm

I would say that to ask for a signed discalimer from prospective trainees is not only inadvisable legally, but also portrays a poor image for a potential business venture. Do you really want to start out looking like a one eyed, tin pot, cheapskate outfit?!
Perhaps you could make a phone call to Alison at Crooklands and obtain the contact details of those who provide the DSWA's own insurance cover. You can then approach them yourself to request some sort of quotation as to a premium for any course which you intend to run.
As you are have the Intermediate certificate you are eligible to attend one of the DSWA's Instructor training weekends, might be wise to consider this. You could use it as an opportunity to hone your teaching skills to be relevant in the UK, network and find more answers to your various queries.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby waller 69 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:21 pm

whats your walling like? some may think i am being rude, you being qualified and i am not. Humour me and i will make an interesting point. , not about you, more about training wallers in general, welcome to the site by the way :wink: :wink:
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Re: teaching courses

Postby Nigel » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:42 am

I would follow Tracey B's advice as it is spot on, I am led to believe that there is an instructors course for those of us like you that have the intermediate certificate, this will allow you to teach one level below your certification (please correct me if I am wrong) If Alison at the DSWA doesn't have the information about insurance you need then I know the man to ask, but I am sure she will, It is worth waiting for the right answer as rushing these things is never a good idea.

If you just want to teach and train then get in touch with your local branch and ask if you can help out, I am sure they will welcome new blood on their training courses. If you are thinking of running your own courses then think not only about little Tommy who hurts his finger but think of the farmer who's land it happens on and the complications there as well.

Like Tracey B said, get in touch with the office, get the right certification and the right insurance, I think it was Stelios Haji-Ioannou who said 'if you think Health and Safety is expensive, try having an accident'.

Best wishes and welcome, stick around here, share your knowledge here.

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dear me. . .

Postby brochstone » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:06 pm

oh well, thought i'd try the DSWA forum even though my past experiences with members of the DSWA have been generally pretty poor to be honest. I've enjoyed reading some good advice and tips on actually building walls but feel a lot of time people just get caught up in their own issues with the forum and the craft. This was my first post and i was hoping for some constructive comments - which i will still welcome by the way and try to share knowledge that i have and learn from a lot more experienced wallers than myself. 'tin pot, one eyed. . . etc. Tracy B - i thought you were supposed to be one of the moderators? would have expected a bit more positivity and tact, less assumption and branding. Not sure about your point about the disclaimer either - i remember filling in many over the years for many courses, professional and otherwise - NPTC etc, and thought it might be a pre-requisite for running a course that's all. The course would not be on a farmers' field running some crack pot business venture - someone has approached me to ask if i would consider running a weekend course or two per year to introduce people to stone walling - NOT leading or gearing up for a qualification - there's plenty of 'wallers' out there who have hardly walled for a living who want to set up and run courses to try to make money - i've no interest in that. Just a weekend course or two, on a friends land to introduce people to the craft and as i've a background in geology, the stone and wildlife too. The DSWA didn't seem to offer any recognised route for instructors but thought i'd better ask them as they get touchy about thinking people can't teach if they've not gone through the 'correct channels'.
Anyway, a shame this is the kind of response i hoped i wouldn't get but if anyone out there has experience of running courses and could offer any advice, i'd love to hear it. Let's keep this site positive and constructive, there are a lot of people with a lot of skills to share and who can take this craft forward. Waller 69 - i know my abilility and 'what my walling's like', let's not get into the old, 'how many metres, what level are you, etc, etc' - i was paid to do my walling tickets on a year long apprenticeship, and to be honest - tickets - take em or leave em, good and bad things about them - what i'm interested in is high quality walling, no bulls**t and i hope i'll hear some decent, sound advice. Thanks whoever it was who welcomed me to the site. It's all about the basics. . .
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Re: teaching courses

Postby Tracey B » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:41 pm

Hopefully the fact that I am a moderator does not preclude me entirely from speaking the truth as I see it. If you or anyone else disagrees all well and good, I never claim to be right, only honest in stating my opinion.
Personally as a trainee (back in the mists of time), I would NEVER have considered signing up for a course which failed to accept responsibility and liability for provision of insurance. There are plenty which do and you are in direct competition with all of them.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby brochstone » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:28 pm

As i wrote in my last post which i'm sure you read - i wasn't hoping to set up a competitive stone walling teaching business and wasn't aware that a disclaimer and having insurance are mutually exclusive - i was simply after information from people who've done it or know something about it - and in my opinion, i'd be more wary of turning up in a farmers field to meet a guy who says, 'yeah you're all insured trust me' than someone who has gone through the health and safety and let everyone know the score. I have taught a lot in the UK and abroad (i'm born and bred North of England) - i'm not new to the country. I would have hoped that having a DSWA qualification or not wouldn't disqualify you from being 'eligible' to attend a DSWA event that helps people to teach if they haven't done so before. I have no feelings whatsoever about your views, be them right or wrong, fact or opinion, i was making the point that if you're a moderator and write a lot of posts, i would have thought that you would be more up for positive and supportive comments. Which leaves me in an unchanged and less illuminated position - the advice so far has been,
- get in touch with the DSWA (which i thought i was doing by joining this forum)
- don't start up a one eyed, crack pot, money making scheme in some dodgy farmers field

Like i said in my previous postings, i dry stone wall for a living and i am after some advice on the need, or not, for insurance (do i even need to be insured if the land is owned by someone else and the course is run for free and doesn't lead to a qualification?) so i don't risk my lively hood by someone suing me because i didn't know i had to produce a disclaimer or some such. I have to say, i'm not really getting very far. Again, i'd love some positive comments or advice from anyone who has actually run courses/talks/demonstrations, not so interested in people's negative comments about something they've not done. Let's keep this site about high quality walling and information sharing.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby david perry » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:08 pm

If you write a disclaimer for a training course that says you will not be held responsible for injuries etc., these hold absolutely no weight in law at all. Ever. You cannot disclaim responsibility for people's H&S Its yours as long as you are the responsible person.

As for insurance I'm not sure you need this (legally)but if you are currently insured then I'd simply ask them what hoops - if any they expect you to jump through or any additional costs involved. If you don't have insurance and somebody (little johnny) does drop something on his non safety boot and injures his toe then you will have to fork out for compensation if he can prove you provided less than adequate training, instruction and safety advice. This may involve selling your house! :wink:
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Re: teaching courses

Postby Nigel » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:48 pm

I think our responses were pretty fair when you consider this was as far as we were concerned your first post and we knew very little about you from that post.

Good luck with your courses, I only hope you get people that ask questions, want to take advice and learn on your courses as there is nothing worse than somebody that asks for advice but does not take it.

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Re: dear me. . .

Postby jim scott » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:14 pm

brochstone wrote:oh well, thought i'd try the DSWA forum even though my past experiences with members of the DSWA have been generally pretty poor to be honest. I've enjoyed reading some good advice and tips on actually building walls but feel a lot of time people just get caught up in their own issues with the forum and the craft. This was my first post and i was hoping for some constructive comments - which i will still welcome by the way and try to share knowledge that i have and learn from a lot more experienced wallers than myself. 'tin pot, one eyed. . . etc. Tracy B - i thought you were supposed to be one of the moderators? would have expected a bit more positivity and tact, less assumption and branding. Not sure about your point about the disclaimer either - i remember filling in many over the years for many courses, professional and otherwise - NPTC etc, and thought it might be a pre-requisite for running a course that's all. The course would not be on a farmers' field running some crack pot business venture - someone has approached me to ask if i would consider running a weekend course or two per year to introduce people to stone walling - NOT leading or gearing up for a qualification - there's plenty of 'wallers' out there who have hardly walled for a living who want to set up and run courses to try to make money - i've no interest in that. Just a weekend course or two, on a friends land to introduce people to the craft and as i've a background in geology, the stone and wildlife too. The DSWA didn't seem to offer any recognised route for instructors but thought i'd better ask them as they get touchy about thinking people can't teach if they've not gone through the 'correct channels'.
Anyway, a shame this is the kind of response i hoped i wouldn't get but if anyone out there has experience of running courses and could offer any advice, i'd love to hear it. Let's keep this site positive and constructive, there are a lot of people with a lot of skills to share and who can take this craft forward. Waller 69 - i know my abilility and 'what my walling's like', let's not get into the old, 'how many metres, what level are you, etc, etc' - i was paid to do my walling tickets on a year long apprenticeship, and to be honest - tickets - take em or leave em, good and bad things about them - what i'm interested in is high quality walling, no bulls**t and i hope i'll hear some decent, sound advice. Thanks whoever it was who welcomed me to the site. It's all about the basics. . .


Brockstone,
Why do you bother to seek advice,on this site,when your past experiences,with DSWA members are so negative,Tracy gave very good advice,but you seem to have chose to ignore it.

You give me the impression by you posts on here that you class yourself better than DSWA trained people.

I have been in this game for 40+ years ,some of the time as Instuctor, examiner etc,I would say that Tracy's idea of checking out with Alison,at DSWA HQ, the insurance details and the availability of instructors courses is the best advice available on the site

Jim
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Re: teaching courses

Postby brochstone » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:11 am

David Perry - thanks for the response, i've always had 5 million public liability, so i'll try and trawl through the small print and see if there's anything in there that means i'm covered although it might be different if a landowner also has insurance and there is a course element to the work - i'll do some more leg work.

Nigel, thanks for the cryptic response and please don't feel i'm ignoring the advice you're offering, it's just that anyone can get in contact with DSWA HQ and ask them,just thought i'd go straight to the wallers themselves and see what they had to say as the forum, from what i have read in the past, seems to be much more practical with people telling about their own experiences. I would also say that if i'm new to a site, it would be good if people maybe asked more questions before making assumptions. I think in your first post you did welcome me to the site which i appreciated.

Jim Scott - again, not sure why everyone seems keen to get bristly about every tiny issue, and not sure why you think i class myself better than the DSWA trained people as i'm desperately trying to ask those very people for useful advice. Everything i have written has been about asking for help and ideas in a courteous manner as befits someone new to a site, and it's great you've been in the game for more than 40 years, you must have experience of teaching courses, of having been on instructor courses and have a lot of great advice - i could really benefit from you sharing some of it.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby waller 69 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:40 pm

brochstone, you have missed my point, i could not care less about walling qualifications for instuctors.....my experience of instuctors in my area, is they could not wall with lego!!!!! as far as it goes i cant teach walling, legit, but in reality i have already done so...if you can wall you can teach.so whats your walling like? :D :D mines on here, take a look, see if i should teach or not :wink:
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Re: teaching courses

Postby david perry » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:49 pm

Brochstone

Don't make it too complicated. Phone your insurers and ask them!!

Someone elses insurance will only cover you if it covers another person running a course on their property. Again if you think this might he the case (or hope it will be) the only way you;'ll find out is by asking the landowner if he's insured for you running courses. (and I think you can guess the answer to that!)

It shouldn't be too complicated!!

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Re: teaching courses

Postby jerryg » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:56 pm

I'd be interested to know what insurance the DSWA have to cover people who just turn out for a weekend local group day. Is the insurance paid for group by group or do the DSWA have 1 insurance policy that covers every group activity the public/trainees/etc who just come along to any activity the DSWA put on?

I know when I worked for BTCV we had a whole group policy which I seem to remember was based on employers liabilty because it was easier to accept volunteers as employees for insurance purposes than to try to designate volunteers as anything else.

I am sure I am not the only waller who talks to the public as they pass alongside our walls and sometimes ask to have a go. I never refuse them, though I just assume that if they hurt themselves while doing so they would have to claim through my public liability insurance, or are we to assume we either need different insurance or just tell them to go away.
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Re: teaching courses

Postby Tracey B » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:41 pm

The Branches are not covered separately. The DSWA umbrella of insurance covers ALL participants in any training events and all public demonstrations conducted under its auspices.
The problems arise with Branch practise events. Only paid up members of the Association enjoy the knowledge of comprehensive cover in this particular circumstance. For that reason it is advised that NO non members should be allowed to participate in individual Branch practise days.
Sounds like you are treading on paper thin ice if you allow the public to get hands on with your walls at work Jerry. I suspect your Public Liability Insurers would be less than sympathetic should you try to claim for some random 3rd party on the policy, and very unlikely to cough up.
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